This is the artificial intelligence voice of Steven Bartlett narrating this pod slice summary of the Diary of a CEO Podcast.

Renowned relationship therapist and bestselling author, Esther Perel, explores the dynamics of relationships, love, and sex, and how these contribute to the quality of one’s life. Perel points out that oftentimes, people don’t treat their personal relationships with the same care and attention they give to their business or career, leading to the degradation of those relationships over time.

As Perel explains, lack of presence in a relationship can lead to feelings of loneliness and abandonment. For instance, if someone spends most of their time on their phone or work, their partner may often feel alone and forgotten. This act of being absent, even when physically present, can lead to a relationship tug of war, where one person constantly tests the other’s presence and commitment which, in turn, can lead to tension and distance within the relationship.

The therapist shares that such behavioral patterns typically emerge from childhood experiences, shaping how the individuals interact in relationships as adults. One key factor, she indicates, is everyone’s need for both security and adventure from a relationship – some people may grow up yearning for safety, connection, and grounding, while others might seek more individuality and personal expression. Consequently, this can lead to conflict when partners don’t share the same needs within the relationship. That said, Perel believes those dynamics are not set in stone, explaining that individuals have the capacity to rewrite their relationship stories, transforming the influence and legacy of past experiences.

Furthermore, she emphasizes the importance of recognizing patterns or “dances” formed between couples. These patterns, according to Perel, are not just what a person brings from their childhood but also what two people in a relationship create together. A crucial point she makes is that these dances can lead to a recurring cycle of conflict – for instance, a person feeling alone in a relationship triggers a resilience strategy in their partner, leading to a back-and-forth of unresolved tensions. This can arise in any topic of conversation, including money, kids, sex, trips, or in-laws, thereby contributing to a recurring conflict loop.

Perel rounds up this section by offering a solution to breaking these dance patterns. She advises the need for acknowledgement and attention, asserting that taking the time to truly be present can make all the difference in breaking these relationship patterns. The guest argues that by genuinely acknowledging your partner and their needs, it’s possible to disrupt this cycle of conflict and contribute positively to the relationship dynamics.

Perel explains a dynamic that often occurs in relationships, highlighting how we often yearn for what we resist. If one person is intruding on the other’s independence, it’s likely because they are expressing the aspects of independence that the other person doesn’t want to deal with. We all have needs both for independence and for connection. According to Perel, we tend to outsource the parts of our needs we are conflicted about, formulating dynamics within the relationship. These needs could differ, for example, between security and freedom, cohesion and individuality, and predictability and innovation.

Perel continues to explore the notion of interdependence in relationships. When one person can do something because the other person is taking care of various aspects of their shared life, that enables mutual appreciation. Acknowledging this aspect is not only a show of gratitude but humbles the individual, reinforcing the idea that they couldn’t do ‘this’ without the other party. This acknowledgement proves meaningful and lets the other person know they matter in their shared life.

The expert also warns against treating relationships as ‘afterthoughts’ or ‘backups’ to our professional or personal commitments. An attitude of complacency often leads to relationship degradation. She stresses that relationships, much like any other aspect of life, need attention, care, creativity, and integrity to thrive. Dealing with modern loneliness, arising from ‘partial presence,’ which Perel relates to the overuse of technology, is vital. This absence of total presence often makes people question their relevance and significance, leading to a sense of ambiguous loss – a feeling of having someone physically present but emotionally or psychologically distant.

Perel suggests a seemingly basic yet challenging solution to this problem – disconnecting from technology and truly paying attention to the other person. She asserts that even though we may feel busy, it’s crucial to prioritize our relationships, reminding us that relationships aren’t cacti that survive without water in the desert.

Interestingly, she points out that the foundation of the solution lies in our ancestral habits – walking. Taking a walk together helps couples connect and communicate, involving motion and proximity, yet offering a sense of individual space where deep conversations can take place organically. In the grand scheme, it’s about balancing professional obligations with personal commitments to maintain meaningful relationships.

Esther Perel emphasizes the need for active cultivation of a healthy relationship. Through her metaphorical ‘figure eight’ explanation, she illuminates how our actions influence our partners, and subsequently, the dynamics of the relationship as a whole. A change in one’s behavior can ultimately influence the other party and help establish a healthier dynamic.

The podcast transitions into discussing the importance of acknowledging small moments of connection between partners. These moments occur through what Perel terms as ‘bids for connection.’ An example includes sharing an interesting article or video with your partner. Despite seeming insignificant, these actions communicate, ‘we’re in this together.’ These moments of engagement help maintain the spark in a relationship by preventing instances where couples take each other for granted.

The conversation dives into the consequences of disconnection, with one couple’s experience highlighting the damage of neglecting a relationship. Striving for balance between professional commitments and personal relationships is emphasized as key. Perel suggests that unlike in previous times where external pressures like the church held families together, the health and happiness of a romantic relationship nowadays is primarily what determines family survival.

Talking about the gradual nature of falling out of love, Perel refers to love as an active verb, implying it requires continuous action. Lack of such action leads to a faltering relationship. Perel also sheds light on the importance of effective conflict handling and resolution within relationships. When couples argue, they need to focus on the underlying connection that has been disrupted rather than the surface-level point of conflict.

Lastly, Perel stresses how relational systems aren’t just about romantic love, but they serve as the foundation for other societal structures, including businesses. The verbs Perel associates with relationships, such as wanting, imagining, receiving, giving, sharing, feeling, exploring, and experiencing, all contribute to the life force that keeps any relationship thriving. She thus encourages individuals to view and manage their romantic and business relationships with the same attentiveness, creativity, and commitment.

Esther Perel delves deeper into the reasons why conflict and uncertainty often paralyze people. She points out that children no longer have the freedom to play outside and engage with peers—developing essential social skills like conflict resolution and teamwork. Consequently, newer generations tend to be more socially atrophied and anxious. This heightened state of fear and avoidance has been exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic, as humans are forced to navigate a virtual landscape, further straining their ability to handle conflict.

Perel offers a simple remedy for some of these social issues: close the screen, go outside, and play. She encourages individuals to reconnect with others, allowing their children to learn critical life skills through play and social interactions. This approach will enable them to tolerate uncertainty, reduce anxiety, and manage the looming mental health crisis.

Perel then moves on to discuss how modern individuals struggle with finding the balance between seeking independence and cultivating their relationships. She emphasizes that love and relationships aren’t just binaries—black and white affairs—but paradoxes that must be managed. She views our desire for both freedom and a deep romantic relationship as a universal predicament.

Discussing the essence of her book, “Mating in Captivity,” Perel speaks about the reconciliation of two opposing human needs: the need for security and the need for change. In the past, these needs were met by different sources—religion and family—but modern romantic relationships are expected to satisfy both, creating a unique set of challenges.

Adding to this, Perel elaborates on how the nature of sex has transformed over the years. Going from being duty-bound to a form of personal expression and pleasure, sex entails more than just physical activity. Its frequency, meaning, and experience all play a role in shaping a relationship.

Perel also considers how society’s mounting expectations of monogamy and finding ‘the one’ have led to unrealistic ideals. This evolution has created a slew of contradictions and raised questions about our fundamental relational arrangements. According to her, every relational system, whether it’s a family, a romantic duo, or a company, must strike a balance between stability and change.

Finally, she differentiates between the “romantics” and the “realists.” Romantics live in the realm of imagination, always seeking new ways to transcend limits, while realists are grounded in practicality, accepting life as it is without the constant need for more. However, Perel doesn’t associate these traits with gender, emphasizing that these dynamics can be found in all couples, regardless of their gender identities.

Esther Perel begins by discussing the social construction of gender and its influence on communication, particularly about emotions and desires. She argues that men, traditionally discouraged from openly expressing emotions, often use the language of sex to communicate their needs. Women, conversely, not traditionally encouraged to openly express sexual wants, tend to talk more about emotional or relational needs, even though they often contain desires for sexual intimacy and pleasure.

Highlighting the changing landscape of sexuality due to feminism and gender equality, Perel explores their implication on relationships and the understanding of sex. There has been a progression from viewing sex as a marital duty to recognizing personal desire and pleasure. These evolutions, she notes, do not negate the potential emotional challenges and contradictions that even progressive couples may face.

Perel then criticizes the significant amount of research on women’s desire, arguing that it implies that women need more help in their sexual relationships and neglects the complexities of men’s desires. She underlines that every individual and every couple faces unique sexual challenges, irrespective of gender, and stresses the need to tailor sexual relationships to the needs and wants of both partners.

Further expanding on the topic, she admits witnessing couples struggling with their sex lives. However, she thinks this struggle often arises from a lack of understanding and communicating about individual desires, leading to potentially dissatisfying sex.

Sharing a personal anecdote, the host, Steven Bartlett, outlines a past relationship breakdown due to sexual issues. However, upon reuniting and making conscious efforts to understand each other’s sexual languages, the couple managed to rejuvenate their sex life. Perel agrees, emphasizing that changing the sexual dynamics within a relationship often requires action and exploration rather than merely discussing the lack of sex.

Next, Perel tackles the topic of rejection and its significant impact on the emotional and sexual vulnerabilities of both men and women. She explains that the fear of rejection and performance anxiety are common sexual vulnerabilities. Her theory is that pornography’s appeal partly stems from its evasion of these vulnerabilities—it offers a realm where one can never be rejected or incompetent.

Concluding the conversation, the future of sexual relationships in the age of artificial intelligence is discussed. The host hypothesizes that virtual reality and AI could serve as an idealistic alternative for those seeking to avoid the complexities and vulnerabilities of real-life interactions. However, Perel expresses concern over this prospect, understanding its appeal but also questioning whether it can genuinely substitute genuine human intimacy and connection.

In this podcast, Esther Perel discusses how couples often experience ‘sexlessness’ in their relationships, prompting host Steven Bartlett to further inquire about sexlessness, its dynamics, and its impact on couples.

Perel begins by questioning what exactly is meant by ‘sexlessness’, underscoring that a lack of sexual activity isn’t necessarily about frequency. It could involve an absence of intimacy that extends beyond sex – a lack of physical touch, holding, kissing, or any form of affectionate contact. Importantly, she talks about room for diverse definitions of a sexually fulfilling relationship, asserting it’s important to ask couples what they want and whether they are willing to take necessary action to achieve it.

Another key point discussed is about shifting one’s mindset about sex from a performance-focused model to a quality-focused model. Perel stresses the importance of communication in sexual relationships – developing a language that enables partners to express what they like, what they desire, and respond appropriately to their partner without judgment or criticism.

Perel acknowledges that the lack of sexual interaction among couples could stem from various causes, from smell, body issues, and trauma to lingering resentments or a fundamental inequality in the relationship. Sometimes, a partner may even hold the belief that they or their body is unattractive, which can hamper their sexual engagement.

In discussing the intersection of health and sex, Perel states that many couples above 55 stop being sexual due to men’s health issues and the medications used to treat them, which often have sexual side effects. If males place their entire sexual identity on their penis and their sexual abilities, any disruption can lead to feeling inadequate and hence ending sexual activities.

In asking Bartlett about his most sensual sexual experience without having sex, she relates the showering together experience he describes to the early sensual encounters children have when being washed by caregivers. This segues into their discussion of the role of sexual fantasies in overall sexual health and fulfillment.

Perel explains that anxiety and shame over sexual fantasies lead people to withdraw from their partners, fearing judgment or rejection. However, she stresses that many carry shame and guilt from negative or traumatic sexual experiences, highlighting that a considerable number of people have had this form of sexual assault or violation experience. Her aim, then, is not to immediately dive into resolving ‘sexlessness’, but rather to bring to light the complex dynamics behind it, so couples can start having more open, understanding conversations about their sexuality.

The host, Steven Bartlett and guest, Esther Perel, delve deeply into a discussion about infidelity. Bartlett kicks off the discussion by asking why individuals cheat in relationships. Perel, drawing from her decade-long study on infidelity, says that reasons for cheating could range from loneliness, sexual frustration, resentment, vengeance, the need for constant affirmation, or even an attempt to escape oneself. She revealed that her studies found that infidelity can also occur in happy couples and doesn’t always mean that the individual wants to leave their partner.

Perel points out that infidelity is not just about sex. It’s about feeling alive and reconnecting with some essence of themselves that they may have lost. She criticizes the notion that has long justified men’s propensity to cheat, rationalizing it as their need for novelty and excitement while women cheated only because of loneliness. She asserts that women had different fantasies than men but prioritized safety over desire due to the social and economic consequences of infidelity.

When Bartlett inquires how to maintain novelty in long relationships, Perel advises couples to do new things together that allow them to be unpredictable to each other, providing an opportunity for exploration and creating a space for aliveness in the relationship. Perel suggests that individuals are most drawn to their partners when they see them in their element, passionate and competent, when they reunite after being apart, and when viewed through the eyes of others. This can help them see things they no longer pay attention to, keeping the relationship engaging and fresh.

Reflecting on the consequences of cheating, they conclude that affairs can sometimes make the betrayed individual value their partner more, realizing someone else found them attractive. However, Perel suggests that if partners were to channel the creative imagination and effort put into the affair into their relationship instead, they would be in a much healthier state.

In the podcast, Bartlett and Perel discuss various key aspects around relationships, from novelty to conflict resolution. Bartlett and Perel emphasizes the importance of keeping things fresh and invigorating in a long-term relationship. Perel suggests that engaging in new activities together or viewing your partner through the eyes of others can revitalize attraction and desire in a relationship.

Perel introduces the concept of “maintenance sex,” acknowledging that while erotic couples have a lot of maintenance sex, occasionally there are unusual, hot, and surprising moments. They understand that each person has their own erotic interiority and are unperturbed by it. A key point she makes is to approach your relationship artfully. There’s an encouragement for couples to innovate and be creative to keep their relationship lively.

Bartlett reveals the most replayed moment from their relationship talks is about balancing love and desire and being engaged; giving your best to your partner. They touch on the problem of continually recycling the same arguments in your relationship, which speaks to the issues covered in Perel’s one-hour online course, ‘Turning Conflict into Connection’. This course aims to teach how not to drown in the same arguments and view the underlying unmet needs behind criticisms, turning negative sentiment overrides into positivity.

Perel believes sitting alone and reflecting on your relationship with your partner can fill up a gap similar to filling a tank with gasoline. Writing a letter to your partner, sharing your thoughts on various moments between you, can signal you value the relationship and aren’t taking it for granted.

Perel prompts listeners to approach ‘conflict’ or ‘differences’ with an open mindset and not as uphill battles that must be won. Learning from arguments and treating the resolution as an accomplishment, not necessarily an agreement or a compromise, is the crux of the course offered by Perel.

Adopting a growth-oriented attitude even in the face of conflict can lead to a stronger connection within the relationship. There is emphasis on the importance of honest communication and effort, with Perel firmly asserting that transforming conflict into connection requires accountability.

Bringing it to a close, Bartlett asked the piece of advice she received in the last decade that she thinks about frequently. Perel recounts her father’s advice, stressing the importance of human decency over wealth, fame, or education. This, she felt, was about keeping grounded and focusing on what truly matters in life, reflecting that even in the realm of relationships, the essence of true connection lies in the decency and kindness of the other person.